G. PAPADAKIS: Mr. Minister, I was thinking about the meeting you had to intensify the efforts to limit refugee flows, a huge issue. Just before, Giorgos Grigoriadis was telling us that Vathy, the capital town of Samos island, with 6,000 residents, hosts 7,000 refugees and immigrants. Twelve thousand more are in Moria. You saw what is happening in Symi, a small island that is full. What measures did you decide to control these flows?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: First of all, there is no doubt that the situation is dramatic and a wake-up call, because that’s our view. We examine the situation as a potential internal security threat for the country.

Upon order of the Prime Minister, after the meeting of the Governmental Council on Foreign Policy and National Defence on Saturday, we met on Sunday with the Military Leadership, the Leadership of the Coast Guard, and the Minister of Shipping and came up with a series of synergies between the Ministries in order to increase our presence and surveillance in the Aegean.

G. PAPADAKIS: In what way, Minister?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: First of all, we increased the manning of all outposts. There are a lot of outposts on our islands. We provided them with additional personnel and assets. They were not inactive, we just provided more people, more assets, cameras, radars, etc. to work more intensively.

G. PAPADAKIS: Give me an example, please. Let’s suppose that these outposts see the inflatable boats coming. What will they do in this case?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: The notification system is activated. It is not enough for the Army forces there to notify their Commander and initiate the notification procedure through the Army’s channels, the Coast Guard is also notified.

G. PAPADAKIS: So, will they stop them?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: The operating forces, i.e. the teams, the boats, the floating craft, which we lent to the Coast Guard, manned with at least the driver and co-driver, but in any case with Coast Guard presence on board, because it’s the Coast Guard that supervises the operation, it is not a military operation, rush to the area. We believe that this presence, as I said there are approximately 20 floating craft – inflatable boats, manned, as I said – in the Aegean will have a deterrent effect as a first stage.

Usually, when our presence increases, flows drop a little. Furthermore, the traffickers get the message and reduce their activities. But only for a while, I believe this is temporary, until they adjust again. But we have to do it. Moreover, I would like to remind you that 15 Hellenic Navy boats, the smaller craft, not frigates, not submarines, have been sent east. They are not behind, to the west of Lesbos, they have been sent northeast of Lesbos, as well as to similar points across the east border.

G. PAPADAKIS: To act as a deterrent, as you said. Are we expecting at least some results?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: We hope so. Because, for some, from a different angle, these will act as a beacon. Let’s go towards the boat, they will collect us. But usually such presence acts as a deterrent. I have high hopes for the floating craft that have been active since yesterday and sweep the Aegean.

G. GRIGORIADIS: What about Evros, Minister? Because there is a great problem there, too.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: Evros is another story. Look, people come in from Evros too, albeit not as frequently as on the islands. Similar orders were given there, because the land border is easier to manage, to increase surveillance measures. I was in Evros two weeks ago, I went to an Outpost, I saw the assets used. There is a Police Officer there cooperating with the Armed Forces personnel. We can’t help but develop synergies with the other Ministries. Half the Ministries are involved in the management of the Migration issue, but, as you understand, it’s the Ministry of Citizen Protection that has the lead when it comes to matters of surveillance and security. We lend a helping hand in this case, because it can’t be done otherwise.

G. PAPADAKIS: Something that may help and, if we achieve it, we may have results, is the method of refoulement, the separation of refugees from economic migrants.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: Undoubtedly. The flow is a problem, if we have a thousand people coming in every day, when the system can only process six hundred applications.

G. PAPADAKIS: Out of a thousand every day, how many are refugees and how many economic migrants?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: We can’t possibly know this. It is a constantly changing figure. We know the exact number of incoming persons. Other than that, the separation, as you understand, is a process that is inherently slow. Of course it could be expedited with relevant support, not just from the Hellenic authorities, but also from the European institutions, which must lean into the issue.

But the bottom line here is that the view changes, the stance changes. I may be hospitable, I can host one, two, three, five people in my house, but when 150 come in, I will start worrying about my house. This is the change of view adopted by this Government because, in any case, this is the first time that the issue of the potential threat to internal security is put on the table.

But there is also the humanitarian aspect of the issue and, from what I see, there is nothing humanitarian in Moria, I can only see inhuman things there. And there is also the geopolitical aspect, which is not within Greece’s control, the games played by Turkey, but this is a great issue which, I believe, is key to a solution.

G. PAPADAKIS: Does the Government examine a change in the method of refoulement of migrants, not refugees, especially of those from countries which are safe, which are not at war?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: There should definitely be a categorisation. Let me give you another aspect. Right now, Idlib, which is the last resistance pocket of ISIS militant Islamists, is on the verge of collapse, the Syrian governmental forces are winning. If a new refugee flow comes from there, which Turkish officials have already foretold, it is possible that fanatic jihadists could flow into Greece. This is something we can’t ignore.

G. PAPADAKIS: Some have already passed through here.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: They might. We now have this issue in our crosshairs.

A. KAYMENOU: Mr. Chrysohoidis said so, that they had arrested some jihadists.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: We now have this issue in our crosshairs and we adapt. The band has changed and the music will be different.

G. PAPADAKIS: But it’s the Turks that have their hands on the spigot. Despite the Hellenic Government’s efforts to change its methods, if the Turks blackmail the European Union and turn the tap on, this issue can’t be resolved. What will you do then? What must the Hellenic Government do then?

H. MAZANITIS: The Armed Forces have been tasked with carrying a disproportionate burden, assuming a completely different role.

G. PAPADAKIS: Because the problem at hand is European.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: It is European and, as we experience it today, it is also a national crisis and, at this point, the Armed Forces can’t ignore this aspect and refrain from supporting those who are primarily responsible, i.e. the Ministry of Migration Policy and the Ministry of Citizen Protection, which is responsible for internal security. We can’t just turn our backs and say “this doesn’t concern us”.

G. STRATAKIS: But, Minister, when you provide reinforcements at military and Coast Guard level, aren’t you essentially letting the Europeans off through Frontex? Is there any cooperation with Frontex regarding the measures you take? Is its role upgraded or downgraded?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: As we speak, the competent Minister of Migration Policy Giorgos Koumoutsakos is trying to convince our partners that they must do more. That they must solve the problem with Turkey. Turkey asks for money, it claims that it hasn’t received all of it, I don’t know about that, but, in any case, if it has the money, it can handle the issue. There is of course some Turkish haggling going on. This doesn’t concern us with regard to our management strategy. We asked and keep asking for more Frontex presence and more NATO ships.

Right now, the international operation in progress, as regards NATO ships, includes a German frigate that provides command and control, it is the “eyes” that see what is going on in the Aegean right now, but, beyond that, very little, a small ship in the Baltic. As a matter of fact, NATO isn’t really concerned, because it is structurally oriented to military threats.

G. PAPADAKIS: Nor does it respond very fast to our requests as regards Turkish blackmail whenever they demand something.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: The Turks have their own problems.

G. PAPADAKIS: And we should tend to our own.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: They pass on the problem to us and thus they pressure Greece, they cause a problem to Greece, they also pressure Europe. They can do what they have to do and we will do what we have to do. Our job is to manage the flows and communicate this outside the country, so that Europe can carry its part of the burden.

Yesterday, France, Spain, Italy, and Malta met and prepared a plan for the distribution of refugees coming from there. They are not nearly as many as those coming from our side. Much less, it is an open sea, it’s not that easy.

G. PAPADAKIS: Given the fact that most European countries say “we have closed our borders, we don’t want any migrants – refugees”. Another issue that must be handled, I don’t know how, you tell me, is Non-Governmental Organisations. We have excellent NGOs, official NGOs, phantom NGOs, NGOs exploiting refugees and migrants instead of helping them and vast amounts involved. Do you know what Turkey managed to do? Turkey managed for the money not to go to NGOs, but rather to the Turkish State and be managed by it.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: This action of NGOs, which sometimes seems uncontrollable, is unfortunately due to the fact that, when the problem came up, the Hellenic State’s structures were not able to deal with it so that the money could go directly to them. Thus came the NGOs, who provided some services and now operate in a way that is not entirely known. As Minister of National Defence, I am responsible for National Defence property, the camps. There are camps hosting refugees, relocation camps or reception centres, where work is done that I am not aware of. If I ask, I will be told “it’s none of your business, this is a matter of the International Organisation for Migration supervising the NGOs”. And there, we will have a problem.

I already asked in my constituency in Kavala and I did not like the reply I got. I wonder whether I should some day go to the camp without anyone’s permission to see what is happening to the Ministry of National Defence property. Consequently, we need more control and rest assured that there will be more control from now on. But this is not just our responsibility.

H. MAZANITIS: Last weekend, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan went to “Teknofest” Expo in Constantinople, where he signed for a new drone produced by the company of his son in law. It has become a family affair, but they have also made big steps, technological leaps, producing a drone that can carry significant weaponry.

G. PAPADAKIS: Do we have drones?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: We do.

H. MAZANITIS: We do have drones, the thing is: what are we going to do to deal with this increasing Turkish threat?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: You are probably not referring to the drone, but to the UAV.

G. PAPADAKIS: This is even more important. They produce UAVs.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: They do, yes.

G. PAPADAKIS: Are we ready to do something like this?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: Indeed, we are behind Turkey in terms of defence industry. They have developed a very active defence industry. They are outside the top ten exporters of weapon systems globally and their goal is to be one of the top five. Consequently, a first goal for us is to put our own defence industry back on its feet. There are many plans for this. There is also another synergy, because it’s always going to be about synergies with this Government, with the Ministry of Development and the competent Minister, Mr. Adonis Georgiadis, who is looking into finding investment schemes that could come and invigorate certain aspects of our defence industry, drones and UAVs.

G. PAPADAKIS: You will see Mr. Pompeo, the US Secretary of State, If I’m not mistaken. Will they ask for something or will we ask for something? Usually, when the Americans come, they come to take something.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: The Americans ask for things. It is in each country’s interest to ask for things from other countries, but in this case we also ask for things. We are trying to deepen our strategic relationship. This is not just about buying a new advanced weapon system, but about building together and having the Americans engage and support our infrastructure. For example, the Souda base, the Helicopter Training Centre in Stefanovikio in Central Greece, the use of part of the port of Alexandroupolis.

I was there two weeks ago with the US Ambassador to observe the removal of a sunken dredger from the port with US funding. A sunken ship right in the middle of the port was a problem. It was removed with US assistance.

Consequently, it’s not just about giving and getting nothing in return. What you get, however, is not let’s say a new expensive next generation fighter, it’s not the purchase of a weapon system, which brings with it lots of support and infrastructure requirements to work. It’s building from the ground up, together.

I have said and it has been misunderstood that the US have great interests here. For example, Souda Base is of great strategic important to them, to the broader area, and they have done things for the Base. The Greeks serving there know how different it is, how much better the infrastructure is. So, when they have an interest there, if someone attacks or considers attacking Souda Base, which is Greek, with a Greek naval base and a Hellenic Air Force base, he attacks not only Greek, but also US interests. You might ask, should we turn the whole country into a US base? No, we will not do that. We will only deepen our relationship at certain selected points. This is the strategic relationship.

G. PAPADAKIS: You know, the Turks take advantage of their geostrategic position. Greece has never done that…

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: For a few years now, due to the unstable behaviour of Turkey or its relevant detachment from the West, the US feel that Greece is a first line country. What they considered Turkey, until now. Consequently, it is worth enhancing their strategic relationship with this country. And we are a first line country.

G. PAPADAKIS: What does the European Union do about Turkish provocations to give us a feeling of security? You have repeatedly said that “we are ready to deal with any challenge”.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: We are. The feeling of security is paramount, because it is a prerequisite to move forward.

G. PAPADAKIS: But your predecessor, Mr. Apostolakis, said that if anything happens, we are on our own. Do you agree?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: Mr. Apostolakis, as an experienced and esteemed first line Officer and Minister of Defence saw the matter from the military point of view and he was right. No one is going to fight with us. But the constant effort of the Armed Forces and the Political and Military Leadership of the Ministry of National Defence is to ensure that this time never comes. And how do we do it? That is the constant effort. That is the concept of deterrence. Deterrence is not about going to war, it is about creating the conditions to avoid war. The ancient Romans said “if you want peace, prepare for war”.

G. PAPADAKIS: The former Minister of National Defence said in a recent interview that we twice came close to an Imia-style incident. You heard it too.

H. MAZANITIS: We had presented one of them, which was about dangerous crossings. I would like to ask this: How many times have we recently come very close to an incident with Turkey?

G. PAPADAKIS: Was it during your tenure too?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: No, nothing like that happened. First, I would know about it and I would tell you, since it would be in the past. Second, nothing like that happened. Besides, don’t forget that, this summer, Turkey saw a boom in its tourism; so, as I said to the Turkish Ambassador when we met about 15 days after my taking office, when things are so good with tourism on both sides of the Aegean, I don’t think this kind of tension and aggressive rhetoric is to anyone’s interest. We must decrease tension.

G. PAPADAKIS: But there is also the Energy issue, Minister.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: On the other hand, you have Turkish hydrocarbon drilling activities and surveys in the EEZ of Cyprus, which I remind is the EEZ of a European Union member state.

G. PAPADAKIS: There is also the challenge of our continental shelf, the aspirations…

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: Of course, the “Oruc Reis”, which was rumoured to conduct surveys in the area south of Kastelorizo, which didn’t happen. And, of course, this is a positive development.

G. PAPADAKIS: What would you do if it actually went to Kastelorizo?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: Look, we would examine all options. I can’t say anything further at the moment.

H. MAZANITIS: Will we request to join the co-production programme of the F-35 with an option to procure this weapon system? And another question, regarding the UAVs, there was talk of an agreement with the Americans that in about August we would get three, maybe four MQ-9 Reapers, the ones they have in Larissa, when their Global Hawks would arrive. What is happening with this agreement?

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: First, regarding the UAVs: we are in negotiations within the framework of the NATO strategic agreement with the US that will be signed before the US Secretary of State Mr. Pompeo visits us here for the acquisition of two or three UAVs, which the Armed Forces intent to use for strategic surveillance, due to their great range. They can cover the entire region, they can go as far as Libya, for example. At the same time, we are in negotiations with Israel for the acquisition of three similar Israeli-made UAVs.

G. PAPADAKIS: Can we afford them? Because we have the Institutions who will come in and say “where did you find the money?”.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: The UAVs are not a particularly expensive programme. That’s why we are in negotiations. There is also the leasing option, which is more affordable. Of course, everything is taking into account the country’s financial capabilities.

The defence budget is 530 million per year, very small compared to the needs. Undoubtedly, with such fiscal difficulties, the need to modernise and adapt the country’s Armed Forces and weapon systems to the new geopolitical data has to be pushed back. But we are always considering smart proposals.

A smart proposal would be to develop our own UAV programme. I had a meting the other day with the Deputy Minister of Development for Research and Development, Mr. Dimas, to find financing opportunities from European funds which could be used for research for the Armed Forces, not for weapon systems, but for surveillance systems.

G. PAPADAKIS: And we have the people to do it.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: We have the brains, we need a plan and financing. The Armed Forces are a structure that can provide these, because they have learnt to operate in an organised, disciplined, speedy, and effective manner, and this is obvious.

Today, we will try to send an Armed Forces doctor to Symi, seeing the need that has arisen. Thus, we also stand beside society, because the Armed Forces are a fine tuned machine whose mission is not just to make war, but also to ensure peace and, during peacetime, to help society.

G. PAPADAKIS: Minister, I wish you to stay on top of developments, because you are the Minister of National Defence and this area is not to be used for debate.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: My first experience from the Committee for Foreign Affairs and Defence which I briefed last week, was that we all understand that National Defence is beyond party debate.

G. PAPADAKIS: I hope that everyone sees it this way.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: We want constructive criticism for every initiative we undertake, away from party bias. National Defence is about the country and about security.

G. PAPADAKIS: It’s in your hand to prove it.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: That’s the direction in which we want to go. But it’s not just about getting your hands on the rudder, it’s about setting the course too. And we want to set our own course, for the whole country.

G. PAPADAKIS: Thank you very much for being here.

N. PANAGIOTOPOULOS: Thank you very much. Let me answer to Mr. Mazanitis about the F-35. Right now, what matters is the upgrade programme of the F-16 fighters to the Viper configuration, which will hopefully put the Hellenic Aerospace Industry back on its feet with all the work it will bring. This could, perhaps, in the future, not now, because there is the money issue, be the bridge for the transition to the next generation fighters, such as the F-35. But first the F-16, always keeping in mind that “we need money”, as the ancient orator Demosthenes said, we shouldn’t forget that.